Transcription:
Joe Welu: (
Hey everyone. Good to be with you. Welcome to The Marketing Playbook for Gen Z Housing Consumers. Super excited today to have this conversation, joined by a couple of really distinguished guests, real true experts in our industry. First of all, I'd like to introduce to you Jessica Manna of Fairway and Shashank Shekhar, and would love to just have you guys share a little bit about your backgrounds — high level — just about your positions currently. And then, we're going to get into a great conversation about Gen Z and what that playbook looks like from a marketing and engagement standpoint. Jess, maybe start with you.
Jessica Manna : (
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Joe. And thanks a lot to National Mortgage News for having us here. It's a really fun topic, so glad to talk on this today with you guys, I'm president of digital strategy at Fairway Independent Mortgage Corporation. This will be my 18th year in mortgage and started in 2004 at an analytics company, so I think you could say I'm a marketer that's a wee bit hardwired to think from a data and technology perspective, which is good because that's a lot of what Gen Z trends are coming in as. It's thinking about them from a technology and data perspective and bringing a marketing flavor to that, so I'm really excited to have this conversation today.
Joe Welu: (
Awesome. Thanks Jess. Super glad to be with you as well. Shashank, give us a little bit about your background, sir.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Hey. Morning, Joe, morning, Jess. Excited to be here. My name is Shashank Shekhar. I am the founder and CEO of InstaMortgage. It's a tech-focused independent mortgage bank. We were the only mortgage company in the country to be named to the Deloitte Fast 500 Tech Awards that came out earlier this year. Personally, I started in the business in 2008. I am one of the top loan officers in the country. I'm also a keynote speaker and a bestselling author.
Joe Welu: (
So you basically don't sleep either it sounds like. You guys are both overachievers. I'm honored to be with a couple of overachievers like you guys. So guys, really looking forward to getting your perspective on Gen Z as both of you have been, undoubtedly, thought leaders and highly successful in how you guys have really navigated the customer journey for all of the different cohorts of consumers up to today. This is really about looking out into the future, right? And saying, "All right, Gen Z, we're at not even basically the first inning," right?
Joe Welu: (
I think we talked about in our prep, about 24 years old is kind of the line. You know, maybe I'll start with Jess and then, Shashank, would love your answer to this question as well. What do you guys believe the biggest differences are in engaging that Gen Z consumer versus the millennials, the baby boomers? Just give us your thoughts.
Jessica Manna : (
Yeah, so you know, this is the a truly digital-first digital-native generation. And, in fact, what's different about it is everybody born after 1990 — which is the entire Gen Z cohort — is actually second-generation digital native. So, let that sink in and think about what it means for expectations, right? You know, they don't know an experience they can't have digitally. Digital-banking adoption grew like 30% during COVID, but that's digital immigration. You know, these are digital-native second-generation consumers, and they have higher expectations of what they can do in that way. We were talking right before this about our kids. You know, my stepdaughter is 17. She got her first cell phone at eight because her parents were separated and needed to be able to talk to dad. Changes everything.
Joe Welu: (
Yeah, my daughter got a cell phone that age too. Go ahead.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Yeah, what Jessica said is so true. I mean, the entire generation growing up — every generation before this — had seen some kind of an offline experience, even millennials, right? We talk about millennials all the time because they're in the peak house-buying age, so to say. What I see Gen Z as is that it's not just a demographic, right? Typically we say demographic, meaning somebody who was born between, say, in this case in '97 to 2012. Gen Z is a psychograph in itself. It behaves very differently than any other generation before that, and that's very important for marketers and CEOs and founders to understand before we dive deep into what kind of tools we should be using. They behave differently in the sense that they are ethnically and racially, most diverse generation that the U.S. has ever seen.
Shashank Shekhar: (
They are huge on supporting companies that care about community, that care about people. They're huge on things that support or prevents climate change, for example. They are huge on the rights, for say, LGBT. They were huge on BLM rights. So everything that you see around — I'm not saying that the millennials or baby boomers were not big on this — but the level of engagement that you see from these kids, so to say, I mean, if you think about it, most of the Gen Z, they're still kind of kids. They're not even legal voting age. But the amount of engagement that you see from them — you will also see a lot of them supporting, say, underground artists. I mean, they don't have to be big brands for them to be supporting them. So that, I think is really important. One, what Jessica said is that the fact that they are completely digital native, meaning what kind of tools that they're using. And two, what kind of mindset do they have, what are the kind of things that they support? If you put those two together, I think you can create an effective marketing playbook for them.
Joe Welu: (
That's really well said. So just to recap what you say because I think it's really powerful. It's beyond just being able to connect with them digitally, and it really goes into — it's as much about the technology sort of becomes somewhat table stakes, but what you're really describing is that mission and causes that the brands stand for and support. If you really want to win the hearts and minds of Gen Z, you need to think about that and how your brand identifies with those certain causes. That's what you're saying, right?
Shashank Shekhar: (
That's correct.
Joe Welu: (
Yeah. Jess, what's your feeling on that?
Jessica Manna : (
I'll add one layer to that. Yeah. It's amazing we're having this conversation. I was thinking about this coming in as well, is that it has to be authentic as well. You know, this cohort, this group of folks, this age — they can smell cringey and inauthentic a mile away. And so when we think about these things, we have to think about them truly and deeply as meaningful changes and not as marketing tactics. So, you know, as we think about marketing with inclusivity, it's also building a diverse marketing team, where Gen Z can talk to Gen Z, and you're thinking about these things first and not as a marketing tactic about attracting people with tools and language, but really about having that sort of embedded in your fiber.
Joe Welu: (
Jess, that's really a great thought process to think about how, what you're saying — just to kind of play this back a little bit to make sure I got this because I think it's really profound — is you can't just build marketing mousetraps for this generation, right? That's what you're saying is that — my team tells me I'm not supposed to curse —so I'll just say the BS meter that Gen Z has is incredibly incredibly sensitive. Right? And so, they absolutely, if you're trying to BS them about a message and saying, 'Oh, look at us, our social causes or this is what we stand form' they sort through that noise just really, really quickly, right?
Jessica Manna : (
Yeah. They're craving authenticity.
Shashank Shekhar: (
I think, Joe, that also comes from an age of information asymmetry to information symmetry. That's something that we need to understand is that earlier, you could say something and there was no way to validate it. Like I could be a lender and say, "Hey, my company was the only company to win this," like I said, in my introduction. And for thousands of years of human evolution, the sellers and the sellers' agents always had more information, right? I could say something, and for you, there was no way to validate. I mean, Gen Z grew up on — they're digital native as Jess mentioned before — is that if I say that I provide the best service, it's easier for them to jump on Yelp or Google and see if that's true.
Shashank Shekhar: (
If I say, I'm, as a company, we are, say, inclusive of diversity and inclusion and minority homeownership, it's easier for them to jump and say, 'What percentage of your employees are diverse? What percentage of them are people of color? So I think there was this information asymmetry for a long period of time where we used to control the information, what you can have. We have moved to a stage of information symmetry, and again, as marketers, that's very important to understand that as you rightly mentioned, your BS meter can be that high because it's easy for them to see through that.
Joe Welu: (
Yeah. I mean, it's really so accurate if you think about their ability to find and consume and get educated on information is just, it's so natural to them, and in fact, they really crave that research. They want to validate, right? That's what we see. On the flip side of that a topic, we spend a lot of time talking about is, as you're building profiles about prospects and consumers and you have Gen Z's, one of the questions I have for both of you guys is what do you feel the expectation of Gen Zs, and really — this sort of next generation of consumer — what is their expectation in terms, as a brand, your level of understanding of who they are, and what's important to them? Do you guys see that as heightened in this more modern, brand-new generation of consumer?
Shashank Shekhar: (
I think, Joe, is that one thing which is very different and is going to be very different for this generation — even more than millennials — is the predictability and the transparency of the experience. I mean, if you're looking at a generation that grew up on the Amazon Primes and the Ubers and the DoorDashes of the world, one of the things that's common with all of this is the predictable experience. It does not have to be the cheapest. It's not as if DoorDash is cheaper. In fact, if anything, it's more expensive than you going to the restaurant and doing their takeout, right? But what it does provide is that if it says your food will be delivered at 7:34 PM, chances are plus, or minus five minutes, you get that. When you order something on Amazon Prime, you know that within 48 hours it'll be on your doorstep.
Shashank Shekhar: (
And so it's really important .— as cliched as it may sound — you do need to produce an experience, which is like Amazon Prime. And that's something that we lack within the mortgage industry. We have always had that problem is to be able to produce a predictable experience.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Every time a consumer comes to us and asks a question, 'When will this loan close?' We'll see what we can do about it. That's the typical answer is because there's so many parties involved. We can't really commit to you on a certain closing date. And so, if that's what is going to be in the future, like if those are the answers that's going to continue as a lender, as a mortgage company, then you are in serious trouble because as a generation, this expects the experiences to be more predictable and more transparent.
Joe Welu: (
Yeah, that transparency, and really, visibility and transparency sort of the same, but also, predictability of the process, right? That's what I'm hearing from you, Jess, what's your feedback on that? Do you agree or do you have a different perspective?
Jessica Manna : (
Yeah, I agree with everything Shashank says. I think it's not just Gen Z that has an expectation for personalization. It's become an expectation of all of us, The one to many marketing messages of a decade or two decades ago, we all have the expectations today of relevance,, of having marketing messages at the right time that really are suited to us. And I think that's become a general expectation for everybody that just increases over time. You know, I think the one thing I would say is, as the world moves towards automation and digital experiences, you can, read the WTO reports and it says — and we see this too, — that people have a craving also for personal relationships, for speaking with experts, for having somebody that can guide them through a process as well. So I think all of this is a balance. It's having the right level of personalization, talking with relevance and accuracy. It's having good systems, but it's also having that professional expertise at the right time. And I think the younger somebody is, the more they really look to that expertise. It's one thing if I'm 42 and have done three mortgages and two refis. It's another thing when I'm navigating a very significant transaction at a young age unaided, and they really are looking for that expertise and guidance.
Joe Welu: (
So really the importance of blending really high tech, best-in-class technology, frictionless visibility with that human connection, right? The human connection of, "Hey, here's a trusted, knowledgeable expert that can help you make the best financial decision." That's ultimately what you're saying, right?
Jessica Manna : (
Yeah, absolutely. There's a term that just did not take off. It really hasn't taken off, but the term "phygital," which is a combination of "physical" and "digital"and the blending of both. So I do think that that has merit to this audience. And I do think that they really think about "How can I get that guidance? How can I get that expertise? How can I have somebody navigate?" But just like Shashank said, having that expectation on transparency throughout that process is really the blend of technology and personal experience and guidance.
Shashank Shekhar: (
And I think there is very clear understanding on the separation of the two also is like — so the things that can be done online, for example, — if I'm trying to complete a loan application, why do I need to do that on phone or in person. You will see that banks had 88% of market share in 2011, and it was 38% last year. That kind of dramatic decline is also because of the facts that, — and even though Gen Z are not buying, they are going in that direction — is that people are increasingly OK with completing, say, loan applications on the app or on the phone. And that's the part where I just mentioned, that's the part where technology is plays a huge role. And they're like, why do I need to do this in person? But if I'm a first-time home buyer, which all Gen Z will be because, of course, they haven't already purchased multiple homes, then they're also looking for that expert advice. Because I'm thinking of buying my first home, but I'm not sure where to get started. And I do want to do my research through blogs and videos and everything else, but can I talk to someone that I can trust? Can I talk to someone who's considered an expert in their industry? And that's the future for loan officers as well is that if you want to survive in this Gen Z kind of a market, if you want to survive in a market, that's going to be heavily influenced and changed by technology, the one thing that will set you apart and will make you stay in the business and thrive is the expertise and the skills that you bring to the table.
Joe Welu: (
So let me drill down on that a little bit, and as we get into thinking about the marketing playbook and how you really start executing on a playbook that will certainly serve you now as a brand for those that are joining the session and listening. And by the way, before I get into this topic really quick, just reminding the audience, anybody that's on, we will be taking — if you have questions — please go ahead and type those into the chat as you have questions. And we'll reserve a few minutes. You got these two great minds on this session with us, so certainly dive in and ask some questions if there's topics that you'd like to learn. So as you think about this marketing playbook for Gen Z, how do you, and you think about expertise as being important, how do you think about the education of, educating with content, with video, different channels and really the knowledge, really the ability to give out knowledge and educate these consumers?
Joe Welu: (
How big of a part is that in terms of this next modern playbook? I know you guys are probably both doing that to some extent now. Is it more important as we go towards Gen Z?
Jessica Manna : (
Absolutely. We're in a maker economy. So being a maker, being a creator is critical, and look, they're different. The channels are different. We can't just say, "Hey, we have a Gen Z strategy because we augment the strategy for, for our, probably core audiences. The channels they use are different. It's Instagram. It's Snapchat. It's TikTok. You know, Snapchat was number one in 2020. Well, it's TikTok in 2021. They're not on Facebook. If they are, it's a dormant account that probably their parent registered for them. Video is what they're consuming. They are consuming content at high rates. They say they're online almost constantly when they're awake. But they hate email. There's a great New York times article recently.
Joe Welu: (
They do, right?
Jessica Manna : (
They do. They hate it, and they feel like it stresses them out. So, I think we have to think about where do we reach this audience, how do we engage with them, how do we make and co-create with them? And look, will these things change as they get into the corporate world as they age? You know, a 24 year old, are they going to change over the next decade? Yeah, probably. So we'll see how these things evolve, but today they lean into WhatsApp and text groups with friends way more than email and Facebook, which is pretty big channels for other segments.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Yeah, I think that's that's really important because sometimes millennials and Gen Z kind of blend together, and they say they're kind of, they have the same consumption habits online and that's not true. A lot of things that Jess mentioned about Facebook being bigger for millennials than, say, Instagram or TikTok, or YouTube being bigger for video consumption. Emails, of course. Millennials, they say 75% of millennials check that regularly versus less than half of Gen Zers doing it. Also because probably emails are not that big a deal for me. They're not in the workforce yet, and so that's when email consumption actually increases. But I have always talked about, I have always advocated messaging over tools. Tools change all the time. I wrote an article for Housing Wire that said you should focus on your message; the tools will come later.
Shashank Shekhar: (
In fact, Jess mentioned that Snapchat was number one. Now it's TikTok. Who knows what will be next year? We know even from our generation is that what used to be MySpace is probably Facebook. What used to be YouTube is already TikTok. So we have seen the change in tools, and sometimes it happens with extreme velocity. TikTok came out of nowhere to become the number one platform.
Joe Welu: (
Nowhere.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Absolutely nowhere, right? So I think as a brand, you first need to decide what your messaging would be. That's something which remains consistent over a very long period of time. That's your brand value. That's your vision. That's your mission. I started blogging in 2009 when less than 10 people in the mortgage industry were blogging back then. I was one of the first to do that.
Joe Welu: (
It was you and Jess probably who were sending out content at that time. And, like, eight other people.
Shashank Shekhar: (
It was, for me, it was about message to begin with. Medium was the second form, because there was nothing else, really. Videos hadn't taken off, so blogging was the medium. And so, but the messaging for me, because I was focusing on first-time home buyers, which were millennials back then, is that they need the most amount of education. We talked about that earlier in the discussion is that when you're buying your first home, you need to understand the process so much more than you are refinancing your fourth home. By then, you probably understand how this works. And we have stayed on that message, the fact that we focus on first time home buyers. We educate them, and I have used every single possible tool. Talk about radio, TV, webinar, seminar, blogs, video, social media. And so the tools have changed over a period of time, but the message of helping them out with guidance, how to buy their first home that has stayed the same.
Joe Welu: (
So the authenticity, the clarity of the message, the mission, as well as their appetite to be educated is not going to change. The tools and channels potentially evolve. That's what you're saying, correct?
Shashank Shekhar: (
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Joe Welu: (
Really well said,
Shashank Shekhar: (
Yeah. You have to have a combination too. You can't have a great message, but to reach on a platform where they're not available. So to Jess's point, absolutely. A true marketer has to go where your audience is. But messaging is what — you can't just get on TikTok and create entertaining videos and just think that that's how and then change that message three days later because the mood has changed or something. So I'm a huge believer on the fact that you hone on your messaging, you decide what is it that you want to convey. And then as tools change, that's your marketing team to make sure that you are reaching on the right platform
Joe Welu: (
And Jess,, I know you spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about the future, watching trends, where, where tech is shifting. And just from your perspective, as somebody that is just constantly has your hand on the pulse, maybe just share a few comments on what your thoughts are from kind of the existing tools and channels that are there today. I assume you also agree that, "Hey, tools are going to evolve and change," but I would just love your perspective on kind of what you see on the cutting edge as we are today in the next year or so?
Jessica Manna : (
Sure. I got really nervous when you started to ask that question. I thought you were going to say, "I know you spend a lot of time on TikTok," and I was feeling really called out. So I'm glad that it didn't go the way I thought.
Jessica Manna : (
Everything that Shashank just said is so on point. You know, It is absolutely knowing the true north of your brand and what those messages are. But it is, having that flexibility and agility within your marketing team to try new things, to be innovative, to feel empowered, to do things, pivot if it's not working if the channels change, etc. So having that innovation mindset, that speed-to-market mindset. Look, we're in a very complicated industry. It's very highly regulated, so you really have to do these things with explicit guardrails and really think customer first and protecting the customer. But having those guardrails in place but still having the speed and agility to try new things, not be afraid to fail, get in there, and you might find that the channels change, and that may adjust your strategy. Clubhouse was really huge in first quarter, and where's that shifting to right now, right? So I do think, yeah, you got to keep the message and the brand first and foremost like Shashank said, but just bring speed and innovation and fearlessness to marketing, so that they can pivot quickly and adjust to what people are doing and what platforms they're on.
Joe Welu: (
That's really a powerful way to think about it. I certainly see from our seat, the brands that tend to be winning most right now have a very iterative approach to how they're engaged. They're really their entire customer engagement strategy, and I think as it relates to Gen Z, the need to be iterative and have speed to market with tweaks and course corrections and shifts, that speed to market is not just going to be a competitive differentiator, but I almost think it kind of becomes mission critical. You guys agree?
Shashank Shekhar: (
Absolutely.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Sorry, Jess, go ahead.
Jessica Manna : (
No, go ahead, Shashank.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Yeah, I joke to my team is that speed is our first name because it's InstaMortgage. So speed is a clear differentiator. It's something which is palpably missing in the industry. We don't think of speed as a differentiator. But speed not just in delivery to the consumer, but, I just mentioned speed in everything that you do. Speed in how quickly you change your tools: the messaging, vision, goals, what you stand for. Those are your constant. But with everything else, you have to be nimble, irrespective of your size. How quickly you're responding to consumers. If you are obsessed about consumer experience, as we are, then everything else — that becomes your true north. That becomes your North Star, and then, everything else follows based on that. What kind of medium are we using? How quickly we are delivering to the consumers, how predictable we are, how transparent we are. And so I think speed as a clear differentiator, as a key differentiator, is going to be huge in the industry, as of course, millennials have become a huge purchasing power already and as Gen Z gets into the market .
Jessica Manna : (
Yeah. And speed in how we respond to the market, but also speed in how we respond to our teammates and our loan officers. They're on the front lines with customers, and that speed to resolving their issues and supporting them means they can help the customers so much faster and better and deliver on those experiences everybody expects.
Joe Welu: (
Yeah. And I think that as you think about how do we win, and you think about how do we win the Gen Z playbook, right — how do you build a playbook that's winning. It really also does — and Jess — we didn't necessarily talk about this in prep, but I think it's really important. It really also does mean you, have to architect your organization internally in an appropriate way so that you can move with those trends, right? And so, maybe just a few comments there.
Jessica Manna : (
Yeah. Sorry. I'm charging out the gates on that one. It's so important, right? It's having marketing leadership be curious, you know. Pick up everything new and keep at it until you can say, "I get it." Spend too much time on TikTok and Snapchat until you can say, "I get it. I see how it works. I see what the draw is." Puddle some crypto buy an NFT. If you have teens, have a focus group with them. Find out what they value and how they interact with the world. Hire a diverse group of marketers. So I think it is remaining curious and inquisitive about the world, not being afraid to try new tools but also really deeply caring about what other people value. What are, like Shashank said, those true intrinsic values that drive Gen Z and how do you infuse that into the org, so it's not a marketing message.
Shashank Shekhar: (
That's a great point around...
Joe Welu: (
That's awesome. Go ahead, Shashank. We got about a minute, a minute left. Go ahead. Last thoughts.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Sure. Of course. No. Staying curious and then trying out new things. I mean, the generation that's growing up on Alexa and Siri, we created the first digital human in the mortgage industry. We call it Rachel, and as metaverse comes in, we are already trying to figure out how Rachel will fit into that metaverse world of helping consumers out with their questions. So again, this is just to stress upon what what Jess was saying is that you need to be trying out new things. Some things work out, some things don't, but that's — as a marketing team — as the founders, that's one of the most important tasks that you have, and you have to go out and get it.
Joe Welu: (
I'm going to wrap up with that. Really powerful statements from both of you guys. And I think this is something that you guys are saying push the limits, have your teams lean in to the change and really stretch outside the comfort zones. And that's what you're really going to need to do if you want to win the Gen Z game long term and really win this market as things are shifting. So thank you so much, guys. Really enjoyed the conversation. Congrats to both you guys on all your success. Look forward to connecting again soon.
Jessica Manna : (
Thank you, both.
Shashank Shekhar: (
Thank you, Joe .
Speaker 2: (
Thank you both. Thank you, Joe. Thank.