How the Mortgage Industry Can Help Combat the Social Structure of Housing Discrimination

As the wealth gap continues to widen within Black and White identifying households, beginning with the practice of redlining in the 1930s, exacerbated by the subprime mortgage crisis, and likely to have been impacted further by the COVID-19 pandemic, the gap in homeownership limits the abilities of households of color to build long-term wealth. While we know this barrier is often driven by discrimination faced during the home-buying process, which goes beyond an applicant’s interaction with a lender, slower innovation in mortgage underwriting and the lack of awareness of lending products geared towards low-income borrowers, has played a part in narrowing the racial wealth gap. During this discussion, panelists from Fannie Mae, Credit Karma and Better will uncover how lenders and technology platforms can tackle existing barriers to remediate racial discrimination in the housing market.

Transcription:

Heidi Patalano: (00:08)
Hello, and welcome to our discussion, how the mortgage industry can help combat the social structure of housing discrimination. I'm Heidi Patalano, editor in chief of National Mortgage News. And joining me today, we have Arun Mohan, Director of Product at Credit Karma and Chuck Walker, Vice President, uh, Digital Alliances and Product Distribution at Fannie Mae. So thank you so much, both of you for joining me here today.

Chuck Walker: (00:33)
Thanks for having us.

Arun Mohan: (00:35)
thank you.

Heidi Patalano: (00:37)
Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I really appreciate the theme of this discussion because we're looking here for productive and specific ways that the mortgage industry can tear down those barriers that have prevented so many households of color from building long-term wealth through home ownership. Um, one of the biggest things that comes up in this kind of discussion is that, uh, you know, a barrier to many has been, uh, not having a credit history. Um, um, so, you know, I would, you guys, we had talked about this detail, that FICO scores, roughly 82% of consumers, and, um, that about 44 million underbanked consumers are not covered by FICO. Um, of course, notably, you know, Fannie Mae took this big step this year and including a positive rental history as part of its underwriting. So, um, oh, uh, I wondered if Chuck, perhaps you could take us through some of the details of that, but I also wanna note part in me, I'm doing this out of order. If anyone has a question during the interview, feel free to pop it in there and we can see, we can try to get that, um, that, that question answered. So yeah. Chuck, could you take us through a bit of, uh, the rental payment history initiative?

Chuck Walker: (01:49)
Sure, absolutely. I mean, I'll just start with saying, I mean, I think racial equity and, and home ownership is, is a big part, you know, big focus for us at Fannie Mae. Um, you know, our, our overall goal is, is to be, you know, one of the world's leading if not deleting, uh, E G investment. So, you know, environmental, social, and government. And so that racial equity is a big part of, of the social aspect, particularly given that the, the ownership gap between, um, white and black households in the us is 30%. So one way we're, you know, trying to chip away with that, um, in partnership with the industry is the introduction of our rental payment, um, rental payment history program that we released in desktop underwriter in September. And essentially what that does is, you know, for years, decades, uh, really we've been talking about, you know, the biggest payment that a person, a non-home owner is making a renter in this case that that coincidentally would be replaced by a mortgage payment.

Chuck Walker: (02:45)
It's not actually considered, uh, as part of their credit history in, in most cases in, in, in, in limited cases, um, rent can be reported on, um, uh, a credit report, but, you know, I think it's less than 5% of the time. Uh, do we actually see that? So essentially the way, the way it works is, um, if someone makes a, a rent payment over $300 a month and it's on the app, they, they, they list that they pay rent and they list that amount on the, um, application. And then they provide the lender with, with 12 digitally 12 months of bank statements. We will basically analyze those bank statements to identify where those rent payments are coming out from, like, say a check checking or savings account. And then essentially we were able to give them credit, so to speak, um, for that, um, and in, and in some, you know, and we think in cases where we saw it was a first time home buyer that would've had, um, basically, and ineligible it'll actually flip them to, to eligible, you know, by getting credit for that rent payment.

Chuck Walker: (03:47)
Um, so we're excited about it. Um, you know, we think it's, we think it's a step in the right direction. Again, it's, it's, it's part of a long journey, uh, cuz that 30% gap. Yeah, it was enormous. Um, but you know, we're trying to take strides to do that at and working, you know, with folks like Arro, um, to make this happen. And there was, I think a question around FICO, which maybe turn over to Arun, I think, do you want to tackle that one?

Arun Mohan: (04:11)
Yeah, no. I mean, at credit karma, as we think about, uh, our mission, which is to enable financial progress for everyone, that's, it's not possible without helping our members achieve the dream of home ownership. So over the last, uh, three to four years, we've really been thinking about what can we do to unlock, put control back in the hands of the consumer and help them really understand what options are available to them and then work with, uh, partners like Fannie Mae and various lenders to sort of bring those, uh, accessible products on our sort of ecosystem, uh, in terms of sort of FICO like, you know, to, to the general note around credit invisible, uh, you know, as, as Heidi, you called out, uh, you know, only, uh, 80, so 82% or so are scored by FICO.

Arun Mohan: (04:56)
So we're generally excited about the possibility of moving to more sort of alternative scoring models and risk assessment models. Like even I know that vantage claims that they can score nearly 96% of adults and like hopefully unlocking a little bit more of that credit invisible segment, but more broadly just how do we start to lean into more, a alternative ways of assessing risk with the rental piece that Chuck mentioned being one of them, uh, like credit card much can play the role of one, we have full access to your credit report. So we can understand if the rental payments are being reported. Are you getting the credit for the payments you're making, if not working with our members to work with their landlords, to make sure that's happening. And also then, uh, unlocking these products, uh, within, within credit karma, what we can also do is like really lean into the, of trust that, uh, consumers have with the technology brand like us, uh, where we could be the source where they can actually report a lot of this data. We can actually, uh, enable seamless connection of, uh, various bank statement, uh, online data sources as a way to collect all that data, do the eligibility checks on our side using Fannie guidelines, uh, educate a consumer, they are, uh, eligible and then connect them to the right lender who can actually fulfill, uh, those products.

Heidi Patalano: (06:10)
Right. Well, you know, I'm also curious about this idea in terms of broadening, um, like who we can get in here in terms of, you know, you know, having them be assessed for, for the possibility of home ownership. Um, we talked a little bit in a previous discussion about, um, the gig economy and how it's growing and how, um, there are so many unconventional kinds of, uh, types of income. So I was wondering if, if either of you wanna jump in here on how this, you know, how we could better accommodate, uh, that sector,

Chuck Walker: (06:49)
Uh, yeah, I'll, I'll jump in this to start and then a room please. Um, you know, this is, this is, it's a target and like, to your point, it's a growing market. Um, frankly it it's complicated. I mean, I, I, I was talking to a lender, you know, and we were talking about this very topic and, you know, for, for a gig gig economy worker, you know, they, their underwriting file could be an inch thick because they've got income stream, so many different types of income streams. And, you know, one of the challenges, um, you know, the last two years with, with rates being low and volumes being so high, it comes down to, you know, lenders are forced to prioritize. How, how do they, you know, if your pipe's only so big and you can only process so many, how do you, you know, treat different, different loans in the process?

Chuck Walker: (07:35)
And in some cases, those other, you know, more generic vanilla w two salary earn, you know, there's a lot less effort in the manufacturing process. So, um, I, I think, you know, there's, there's solutions out in the market. I think there's more to come. Uh, I, I do see technology, I think, pointing at this problem, um, cuz it need, you know, there's, there's automation, there's, there's a lot of, um, document OCR functionality being introduced in, in the market, which, you know, I think is exciting and, and just helps expedite that process. Um, and in some cases helps and I think this gets back to Ron's earlier point around education, um, letting getting a quicker answer as to whether or not they're actually ready. Right. And, and I think one of the things we're excited about and this another we're seeing technology play is in instances where they're not ready, you know, a decline for, for a mortgage today, instead of it just being a stop and kind of, you know, fall off a cliff.

Chuck Walker: (08:31)
Now, now it's a not now. And there's, it's more of like an exit ramp and, and you know, there's digital tools out there to help a, you know, consumer better understand what the gap is, terms of their eligibility and, and then they can work to close that, whether it be with a housing counselor or, or, you know, technology vendor.

Arun Mohan: (08:51)
Yeah. That's yes. Yeah. I was just gonna build what Chuck mentioned at the end, in terms of sort of that credit coaching sort of loop. Uh, you know, like for example, we, we rolled out a product called home buying power about three years ago and we actually have 8 million out of our 110 plus million consumers actually using that product. But when we look at what it really does is like, look, set your credit score, income debt, all of which we have visibility into and gives you an assessment of your mortgage readiness pretty much, uh, based on Fannie's guidelines.

Arun Mohan: (09:24)
And what we see is like about 65 percentage of those consumers do qualify for some home buying power for at least like a low down payment product. Uh, but remaining 35% don't. And our goal is to guide them to the right credit improvement products or debt pay down strategies or finding the right ways to boost their income and save more money to get towards that goal as fast as possible and ver different verticals and product teams across credit karma are working on all of those problems and what our goal is to connect all of them, to help drive towards that, you know, UN quite objective of, uh, you know, helping people buy a home, uh, in this context. Um,

Heidi Patalano: (10:02)
Right. Absolutely. I that's what I think is really interesting, um, that we're seeing more of is that, that working ahead, working on the, the, the credit improvement we're doing, making tweaks, making changes to, uh, a few different ways of operating so that you can raise your score over the course of a couple months or a year. And that's really exciting. That's exciting that they're doing that. Um, so in terms of, you know, we, we're talking about the underwriting process, um, in terms of, um, closing costs, like through what can, what can be done there, um, in terms of, you know, like how we can better like reduce those expenses and, or at least increase efficiency so that, you know, this is less of a stumbling block. Pardon me?

Arun Mohan: (10:57)
Yeah. Uh, I, I can provide like a credit karma point of view here. So I mean, our goal ultimately is to, uh, reduce as much friction in the process as possible for consumers, but also by virtue of doing that, uh, provide like a really high quality high intent lead to, to the lender. Right? So, uh, with all the data that we have, we can essentially call it a pre underwrite in some ways to see if that consumer's eligible, uh, to potentially qualify. We also ask them a bunch of questions about, say in the purchase market, where are you in the process of buying a home and so on? Uh, and if they are actually serious, we can actually use all of our data to like pass pretty much put together like an application close to a full application package, uh, thereby and including potential like verified, uh, data source, like verified income and so on rental history information.

Arun Mohan: (11:49)
And so on that we have on our platform that way, by the time it gets to a lender, the cost that they have to incur to basically collect the application, the documents, et cetera, needed, uh, will hopefully be a lot, lot lower. And they can just focus on passing that benefit back to the consumer in terms of like low to no closing costs, other incentive programs and so on, and maybe even subsidizing the rate so that that's where we want to come in and use technology and data as a way to reduce that overhead, to bring down closing costs.

Heidi Patalano: (12:20)
Yeah.

Chuck Walker: (12:21)
Yeah. We, we recently released a, a, a white paper after doing quite a bit of research in the closing costs. And, and we, we see this as a, um, a real opportunity, particularly for first time home buyers, um, you know, like, and that re church, for example, closing costs ultimately are essentially regressive, um, you know, which, which overly penalizes the, the first time home buyer. Um, and if a first time home buyer, low income, first time home buyer would've paid the same kind of average that all home buyers paid as a portion of, of the closing price. They would've saved 600, hundred and $16, which in the course of a mortgage may not sound like a lot, but the same, the same group of, um, low income, first time home buyers, their average, uh, reserves PO post close are about $2,500. And, and that's, and really what, you know, what that's a risk, you know, right after that closing that first six or 12 months is peer period of risk because, you know, things can break in the house, you may need to get furniture.

Chuck Walker: (13:18)
And so we see that as a real opportunity as a, you know, and I think technology is, is one of the big solutions we see to being able to drive that. Um, but, you know, I think from our perspective, you know, and this is in recent, the white paper first it's like we had to get the backs on the table. Um, you know, and, and because closing costs are also a tricky thing to, to get your hands around in our study. Um, and I may get the quotes roughly about 40% of the actual closing costs. When you go into the closing cost, data are just listed as other, and you actually get, have to get all the way into kind of like a text field to understand, um, you know, what the nature, those closing costs are so that you can, you know, ultimately kind of begin to address them, but mm-hmm,

Heidi Patalano: (14:01)
Well, you know, what's interesting, you both mentioned education and educating the consumer about, uh, what's out there, what's available to them what these costs are. And I wanted to talk a little bit about the down payment assistance programs. So I know credit karma has a product that kind of speaks to this. Uh, I was wondering Aroon if you could talk about that a bit.

Arun Mohan: (14:24)
Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I think the Genesis of the product, which we call access roadmap was really, uh, when the George Floyd instant happened and sort of the series of events that followed few of us in internally at the company got together to really think about what, what can we do to really, uh, play our role, uh, as an unbiased third party to use our data and a brand to basically open up, uh, awareness and access to a lot of things that, uh, say black Americans have been historically, uh, um, you know, limited to, uh, so the, the pillars of access really come down to three things. One, how can we use our platform to drive awareness around discrimination and help empower consumers to understand that they might be, uh, they might be treated differently by certain players in the industry. So that's just content and awareness two, we want to help with the remediation, like what we've done with like the credit scores.

Arun Mohan: (15:21)
Uh, if you wanna dispute credit report errors, you can use our platform to dispute that directly the same way we want to reduce the friction of filing a complaint. If you fi, if you feel like you've been discrim against with the right authority, but that's all prevention, but really the, the biggest piece is around how do we use our platform to take, uh, the sort of fragmented set of down payment assistance programs, which I think there are nearly 2300 of those out there at various city state county levels use our platform as a way to simplify and standardize can search for those programs, use the information we have about you to, to recommend the right program for you, and then find the right lenders to who can honor those programs and thereby unlocking more down payment or second mortgage, or, uh, basically get you closer towards that goal.

Arun Mohan: (16:07)
Um, so, so that, that's, that's kind of what, we're what we are focused on right now, now, uh, in terms of like the potential of impact, like according to our internal data, like 41% of credit pharma members actually live in the south, like home to lowest media incomes in the country. So we index lower FICO, lower income more towards the south and mapping that to census data like that's where half the countries, black Americans live, for example. So if we are able to, uh, open up access to these untapped programs and simplify that process using technology, uh, we think we could really make a dent in making sure these funds don't go wasted. Uh, we can talk about the systemic things that need to change, but there are solutions out there. We wanna bring them to more people. Um,

Heidi Patalano: (16:50)
Right, right. And speaking of, uh, um, other solutions in addition to, uh, adding the rental payment history, I know, um, this year Fannie Mae also launched refin now, uh, as a, which targets, uh, lower income borrowers. Um, Chuck, do you wanna take us through some of the, those initiatives?

Chuck Walker: (17:11)
Sure, sure. The, the, you know, the Genesis of refin now, now is, you know, research has shown us that, um, low income and, and, and, and also more predominantly, um, minority families are less likely to take advantage of low rate, um, refi. And so, you know, what refi now does in a sense is that expands some of the, some of the, you know, it makes it easier to, to execute a refi. We recently updated it based on, on lender feedback. Originally, there was like a requirement to reduce the pay the monthly payment to the, to the borrower by, uh, $50. And there was a seasoning element to it. Those have, have been removed, um, because we want to, we want to, you know, we wanna see folks take advantage of that to, to whether it be lower monthly payment, um, you know, capitalize on their, their equity position or whatnot, um, to be able to ultimately create a more sustainable, uh, financial position for them to, to, to, to stay in the home long term.

Chuck Walker: (18:09)
Um, you know, to one of ruins earlier, comments is just reminding me of something. I mean, there's this whole piece around, I think just consumer education, whether that be about down payment assistance. Um, you know, we did some consumer research and 76% of consumers didn't realize that there were basically mortgage products with a three to 5% down payment option. So, you know, I, I think there's this big myth out there, um, in many communities that you've gotta have 20% plus in some case closing costs can almost double, you know, that, that, that initial payment. Um, so, so they're viewing as an insurmountable amount of cash to put down on the closing table. And so that's one of gonna be one of our big focuses. We're gonna, um, launch, um, a home view product in January to, to its really gonna be focused around consumer education so that, you know, I think family too, we, we have a trusted brand and we want, we wanna help educate consumers, not just in the, what's say like the final, which is I've decided I want to go and get a home and I'm gonna put it in an application, but how do we, how do we reach consumers earlier?

Chuck Walker: (19:16)
And, you know, cuz for us, it's not about expanding the credit box and getting more people at homes, but it is saying, look, our, we think our credit box is, is sustainable and responsible, but how do we educate those folks that are actually within our credit box in either they don't, they don't see us. So they're not, not reaching out for that access if, if they want it or we don't see them through some of the other things we've talked about in terms of alternate data and whatnot.

Heidi Patalano: (19:39)
Right, right. I, you know, it's interesting. I had a conversation yesterday as a part of digital mortgage, uh, with NEMA I'm sorry, from blend about, uh, proactive banking and approaching people like how having the data in the future to say to them, do you know, you actually can do a, B and C and you know, just kind of putting that information in their hands. Well, can you tell us anything about how home view will work? Any, any specifics you could give us on that?

Chuck Walker: (20:06)
I I'm I'm light on specifics today. I I'll just tell you, you know, I it's out there. I, it, it kind of stemmed from some lessons learned during COVID, you know, during COVID, um, when forbearances rose, we made contact to make sure people knew what their forbearance, um, and lost mitigation options were with, with millions of consumers. Right? So, so this is one where, um, I, I think we engaged, we had a know your options.com website, where we had a lot of folks come in to, and that's where basically you could check to determine dis Fannie may own my mortgage. And if so, what are my, what are my options if I experienced an income disruption or whatnot. And so I think we, we, you know, our goal is to kind of build on, build on that and see like, how do we, how do we reach out to more consumer or maybe not reach out to more consumers make available? I should say the information the consumers want to know, so we can dispel some of those myths and people can make better, you know, better, more informed choices about financial products, whether a more, you know, a mortgage

Heidi Patalano: (21:05)
Mm-hmm yeah.

Arun Mohan: (21:08)
And on the, on the credit karma side for, um, you know, we, we have this initiative during COVID times called, uh, we called relief roadmap, basically trying to help existing members tap into any sort of COVID relief programs, including related to forbearance and foreclosure. And so on, uh, that, that in many ways, like the efforts we have, like takes leap outta that playbook, but just, just on the sort of the homeowner side. And we also talked about refin now a little bit, uh, some of the issues that we are hearing and some of the horror stories we are hearing about discrimination even now is on the home value and appraisal side side of the house. And you know what we we've thought we had thought a lot about like, how do we, we get first time home buyers into homes, but not enough about how do we protect existing homeowners, uh, and help them preserve the value that they have in their home.

Arun Mohan: (21:56)
And because as Chuck has Chuck and I have talked about at length, like it's not just about getting people in homes, like how do we help them take care of their homes really well? And one of the things we've done is to put the control back in the hands of consumer, by launching this product, what we call home pulse, which is enabling consumers to track the equity that they're building in their home, as well as the, and using an automated valuation model, uh, with a partner to help them understand their home values. So when it comes to tapping into their equity for home renovations, or even doing like five, where obviously LTVs a big factor, uh, they, they know where they stand and they can be in control when they go talk to a lender to, to say, Hey, I know how much I have, and I'm not reliant on a third party appraiser or whatnot, uh, to figure out what they can qualify for. So, uh, we have more than 4 million, uh, out of our 12 million homeowners who are already using this are really excited about using that as a platform to drive awareness for a lot of these products like refi now and, and also solve some of these problems.

Heidi Patalano: (22:57)
Right, right. And that's, I've heard that from several different sources that, you know, as the inventory is so tight, you know, a lot of people are turning to doing home improvements and really tapping equity in their homes in order to make those big, uh, changes on their property and really invest in them. Mm-hmm , um, you bring up an interesting point about the appraisals that made me think about the, the big announcement that came a couple months ago in which, uh, desktop appraisals, uh, were, are now going to be accepted permanently. And we, we talked a little about this in a prior discussion about how that could possibly impact this issue. Um, so I was wondering if, you know, all right, may maybe, um, you know, it, it, it's, it's something that stands to change the appraisal field of course, quite a bit, but how might it impact, um, you know, getting, getting more people into more affordable homes, so perhaps yep.

Chuck Walker: (23:58)
Yeah. I I'll, I'll take maybe a few comments of this one. I think, um, there's a lot of research being done and, and how has been done into, you know, does appraisal bias exist? You know, I, I think it, it's, it's fair to say it exists, you know, but the question is like, so how do you, if you know, it exists, um, intentional or unintentional, what can you do about it? And, and, you know, having data, you know, having desktop appraisals where, where you're, you're collecting data on the property and, you know, the more data you have, the more, it's easier to, to identify those, those, those, you know, occasional rare instances of bias that, that enter into that, um, so that it can be addressed. I mean, I think the other, the other challenge, you know, ultimately I think desktop further seeking to solve is we've got, you know, a continued try ranking, um, appraiser workforce, um, and you know, and so turn times you saw this happen during COVID where turn times just, you know, kind of escalated through, through the roof, um, which is not a good consumer experience, um, particularly, you know, given how hot the market's been.

Chuck Walker: (25:02)
And so, you know, I think it takes some pressure off of that part of the system as well, which is good. Mm-hmm

Heidi Patalano: (25:10)
Right. Yeah. I, well, I, the, yeah, it's definitely a flexibility that could stand to really change things up. Um, okay. Well, I, you know, we're wrapping up our session now, so if anyone in the audience would like to post any questions, please feel free to do so now, um, I suppose I just wanna ask each of you, um, as we go into 20, 22, perhaps we could talk about, uh, you know, your predictions for the next year. I love to ask everyone to look the crystal ball and, you know, just tell me something about what, what they think might happen next year. We all love to like, make our guesses. So maybe Aroon do you have anything off the cuff that comes to mind?

Arun Mohan: (25:51)
Well, I mean, uh, the investment we are making in like the home pulse product that I talked about is, is also a representative of what we, where we believe like some of the refi business is gonna go around, uh, the record amounts of equity that people are building up. And how do we enable people to use that responsibly, to either consolidate that make the right home improvements and so on. So we definitely see, uh, spending with like the home improvement side, definitely go up a lot. Uh, so we want to build something that is honestly just magical using our data for consumers, just quickly tap into that and make sure that they do it in a responsible way. Uh, so that's definitely a big focus. And then the, the other piece is always, always purchased. So we, we skew very much first time home buyers.

Arun Mohan: (26:37)
So all the, all the issues that we talked about today, uh, in conjunction with like the access efforts, like more broadly, we want to, uh, make that sort of preapproval upfront certainty experience as seamless as possible. And by the time the borrower goes to a real estate agent or actually goes home shopping, they, without even talking to anyone just by using our platform, they can actually understand how much they can afford get a fully vetted, uh, pre-approval letter that they can use to, to start shopping, which hopefully then unlocks more, more opportunities for more homeowners out there. So clearly doubling down on purchase, uh, and figuring out what's our role in nurturing the consumer through that home ownership journey. Um,

Heidi Patalano: (27:18)
Right, right. That sounds good. And Chuck, what, what are, what's your in

Chuck Walker: (27:23)
For 20? My, my prediction. Yeah. Well, yeah, I should, I should warn you that my, my crystal ball's proven foggy in the past, but, but I'll give it a try. Um, so, so what I'd say is, you know, I think you've seen a lot of, of capital flow into the mortgage fig you know, mortgage tech or FinTech space. And, um, there's now been enough time where you're seeing a lot of players, you know, really kind of have the time to do the post merger, you know, post acquisition integrations. And so now it's like people are building some pretty amazing technology, you know, and where we sit, we, we tend, tend to sit kind of in the center and they're kind of help helping stitch together the ecosystem where they're helping stitch together us. And so I, you know, I'm excited to then just see a lot of these advancements come.

Chuck Walker: (28:07)
Yeah, I look at the, you know, going back to the rental data, um, we, we could have never done rental payment data without launching our data validation service years ago. Right. And so these are all building blocks and I think you're gonna see some pretty big, um, kind of breakthrough innovations come out next year as people, you know, realize. Yeah, the, I won't say the, the industry's yet saturated with data. I think we're far from that, but I do think we're kind of at an S curve, um, in terms of being able to leverage that data and creating a much better consumer experience and for our sake, what we'd like to see is that not just be consumer experience, but creating a, you know, a better benefit to the end consumer overall. Right. So,

Heidi Patalano: (28:44)
All right. Well, thank you guys. Thank you. Both. I'll hold you to it. We'll check in next year and see if you are right or not. Um, I'll bet you, you know, five bucks or something. We'll see. I think you both

Chuck Walker: (28:55)
Good.

Heidi Patalano: (28:56)
Um, alright. Well, thank you both for joining us today. This was a great discussion. I really appreciate it. Um, thanks so much. Thanks so much. Thanks.

Chuck Walker: (29:03)
Yeah. Thank you.