Track 3 – Success Paths for Women in Mortgage & Fintech

Thanks to many trailblazers, more women lead every key role across mortgage originations and servicing, from finance and capital markets to sales and servicing to underwriting and processing. But where did they begin 20 years ago? And where should women begin their paths today, in a more modernized, fintech-powered mortgage sector? How important is your starting point in this industry to set you up for decades of success? These top women mortgage and fintech leaders walk you through it. 

Transcription:

Melissa Langdale (00:06):

Awesome. Thank you guys for humoring me. Welcome everybody. I'm Melissa Langdale and the president, COO of the Mortgage Collaborative. Join by some absolute rock stars in the industry today. Excited to spend some time with them and talk about success paths for women in mortgage and FinTech. And so well, before we get too started today, we do have some great discussion questions planned out for us, but we'll have open questions at the end and so be thinking about what you want to ask. So we don't have Bueller moments, so let's go ahead and get started. We'd love for you guys to kind of introduce yourself and then as a little bit of an icebreaker, why don't we have you guys not only say your name and what company you're with, but also what drives you to be a leader. Do you want to start?

Terry Schmidt (01:24):

Sure. I'm Terry Schmidt. I'm at Guild Mortgage Company. I've been at Guild for 38, 39 years. I've lost count. I started my career at Guild, so my entire mortgage career has been at Guild Mortgage. I have three boys and all grown and I have my first grandchild. So excited about that. What keeps me excited about being a leader? I would say first of all, the industry. It's super exciting and fun. I mean, there's never a day where you're not challenged and if you're not accustomed to change and being able to react quickly to change, this is probably not the right industry for you, but that makes it really, really fun. And guild where I've been and grown up at, we have an amazing culture that people are amazing and that's what keeps me going as a leader. And I feel like every day I learn something from customers, from our people that work at Guild and I feel like as long as I can make a difference and make something anything better for the company and for our people and our customers, then I stay motivated and I love it.

Katherine Campbell (02:52):

Alright, So I'm Catherine Campbell. I'm the Chief marketing Officer for AnnieMac. I have been there a whopping two a half months, so it's been a little fast and furious. We're looking at a rebrand and ACRM, so you talk about changes, we're going through some pretty massive ones here. I was five years at a lender called Assurance Financial and there I was the CDO. And I think that we have a very fine line today between CDO and CMO. Obviously you have to be intimately familiar with the technology to be able to carry the conversation with the borrower, keep the LO engaged in the CRM. And so I find them to be very similar roles. I will say what makes me want to lead is I was in San Francisco for 20 years. I lived in Charlotte, North Carolina now, but I've lived in Dubai, I've lived in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, I've been all over. And that 20 years in San Francisco, early days of startup and all of the technology and.com world, there were just some real that ran teams and I was like, you don't have to be so mean to lead, Like mean, I'm not kidding. And I remember being a young employee and thinking, I'm going to lead one day and I'm going to prove it doesn't have to look like that as a woman. And so I feel like I have accomplished that. I love my team and they're fabulous, all of them.

Melissa Langdale (04:13):

I love that. Melissa?

Melissa Wright (04:15):

Hi, I am Melissa Wright. I'm the chief sales and marketing officer of American Pacific Mortgage. I've been with American Pacific Mortgage for nine years and prior to that I had my own company that I had for 18 years. So I've had every position from starting a company knowing you got to learn every role in the company and then leading and then now what I'm doing today, what I love about leading when you look back is just some of the themes are surfacing, but it is about impact. Knowing that what you can do can impact an organization and also those connections you just can't beat the connections that you can make and those impacts that you can do. Whether you're making people better, you're making systems better, you're making a company or a culture better, you're making people's lives better. That's what motivates me. So no matter what I'm tackling, I'm always kind of thinking about where can I make an impact and how can I make stronger connections?

Melissa Langdale (05:23):

I love that too. So the next question I have is really, Katherine, you started to mention this experience that you had early in your career. I think it'd be really helpful to just share, if you could go back in time and give advice to your early career self, your 25 year old self that's just kind of getting started, what would you tell them? What advice would you share with them?

Katherine Campbell (05:51):

Maybe party a little less? I mean, I was right in that.com thing and I'm sure it didn't help my career the entire time I was there. I was very much into the launch parties, so that would probably be it. But then also that there is time. I felt like there was such a rush, obviously in dotcom there was such a rush, but I just felt like I was trying to get ahead of something the whole time that was never going anywhere without me. Do you know what I mean? Was just take a deep breath and be part of it in the massive evolution we were going through. And it serves me very well every day in this industry to look at us, go through this evolution. I'm so fortunate to have gone through that to help c-suites especially realize this is a transition. It's not forever, you know what I mean? But we've just got to do it together and it's just one learning moment at a time. So just relax a little bit more.

Melissa Langdale (06:44):

So Party less and recognize more. That's right. That it's day by day. Okay. Melissa, do you want to go?

Melissa Wright (06:52):

When I look back, I guess something I would do differently was not work so much. That is something that there are periods of my life that they all blend together. There were some years of a lot, Just A lot of grind, a lot of hard work And it took Me to get a Little bit older and have some health challenges to radically change the way I work. I used to wake up and the first thing I do is grab my phone or my laptop and jump right on emails. I don't do that anymore and haven't for quite a while. But there were my younger self because we feel great and we feel invincible. I worked easy 15, 16 hour days every day. So that is something I would do differently.

Melissa Langdale (07:41):

Terry?

Terry Schmidt (07:45):

I would not take granted any type of opportunity. You never know when you meet somebody how they're going to impact you 20 years later. To this day I meet people in this industry that I met 30 years ago. Do you remember? We met at and just something, there's people that you can always reach out to and you never know how they're going to impact you. When I went to guild, it was a job interview that I was this close to not showing up for because it was not the job that I was, but I did. I just thought, you know what, think positive. Just practice your interview skills. And here I am 39 years later, so you just never know.

Melissa Langdale (08:39):

One of my favorite books is by Jeffrey. It's the little red book of selling. And if you all haven't read it, it's super funny and some good practical advice too, but he calls that antennas up. Just kind of keeping the mindset of being open to what's coming your way and actually is a really good lead in to my next question. It's almost like we planned that. What are some of the things that you've done either intentionally or unintentionally to help you to stand out for opportunities in your career? So as you kind of prepared for that opportunity to come your way, what are some of the things that really helped you to stand out? Do you want to start?

Melissa Wright (09:21):

Would say that try to make sure that when there are issues and problems that come up in the organization, that you are involved and you try to figure out a solution if you're one that brings the problems to the table but never have, where do I think we should go with this? Which direction should we go? That makes a huge difference.

Melissa Langdale (09:51):

I love that Catherine, what about you?

Katherine Campbell (09:52):

Mine was very unintentional, but it definitely helped me serve my entire career In the early days of startup in San Francisco from a marketing standpoint, when we were decide we were going to place a Pop-up banner or A display ad, Do we do a button? Did we do a skyscraper? The really early days, the only way to really figure out some of that was the very first release of Google Analytics and it was really cool. We could actually not only see how many times an impression happened on a website, but obviously the click and then oh my gosh, all the way to conversion. We could track what was going on. Well that is how I was making decisions, not really understanding web analytics. We have it today, right? Very mature. So I was the only person with the data in the room and they would say, okay, we're looking at new websites and we're not sure that this one's good because I don't like the sales guy or Something. I'm like, well, we have 7% conversions versus 5% conversions and I'm just justifying it. But I realized early on how critical owning the data was.

Melissa Langdale (10:52):

That's great.

Melissa Wright (10:55):

So I would say that don't be afraid to when something kind of draws you to it, whether it's curiosity or interest or you want to be involved, have a seat at the table, whatever that is, lean into that because that's when doors will open. It's definitely a lot what Terry was just saying, and I'll give you an example. So when I first came to America Pacific, I was just over sales and production and I was building branches and recruiting and all that kind of stuff. And I went to a meeting where we were talking about rebranding the company and when they presented how they wanted to rebrand the company, I was like, oh, this is terrible. And I wasn't in marketing at the time, I told you what I was doing. And so I pulled our CEO aside and said, would you mind if I had at it, would you mind if I took a stab at what you're doing?

(11:52)

This is why. This is some background I have. And then it kind of evolved into what I'm doing today. So same with technology. Our technology was over here. I really could see the experience side that was being missed. It was heavily ran on a technical side and the experience for the consumer or the end user was not great. And so I wanted to take that on. So I had compelling reasons to bring that up. And then now I have all the sales technology. So this is how kind of careers evolve is opportunities will open and you just have to lean in and be brave to say something and give it a shot.

Melissa Langdale (12:32):

I love it. Okay, well be solutions oriented data-driven and take the shop. Alright, great advice. So where should women begin their paths today in a more modernized FinTech powered mortgage sector?

Katherine Campbell (12:51):

I probably am not the best person to answer that because I'm not a FinTech person. I have not been, I've been in the accounting finance kind of side of the business. So I think these two ways probably be better to answer that one.

Katherine Campbell (13:09):

Starting their career, I assume you mean a young person starting their career. I'm just going to tell you it doesn't matter. The evolution, the opportunities arise and you just need to actually be working. If you're just legitimately working in the day, you're going to have information that serves the company well and then where those opportunities come up are likely going to be very natural for you. I can't say it enough how critical the data is and data should be democratized at companies today. So it should be relatively easy to get ahold of and be knowledgeable Hopefully today there's not only just the one young person who's knowledgeable about the data, unlike before, but I do not think it matters. If you're interested and you get a foot in the door, just take it.

Melissa Wright (13:49):

And I would just piggyback on that and say wherever you can learn. So it's take the jobs where it actually stretches you and you feel like there's a lot for you to learn and fill in that knowledge gap. And then the other position and the next one where you can learn. If you kind of stay in a job that you already excel at, you already know how to do really well, then that may not open up as many other doors. But take some of those opportunities. Doesn't mean you have to even give up what you're doing, but put on an additional hat and do something that stretches you a little bit.

Melissa Langdale (14:24):

Well, everybody here has earned a seat at the table in your companies and in your careers, and I think it would be helpful to everybody to hear how do you ensure that your voice is heard and valued and impactful in the rooms that you're in?

Terry Schmidt (14:41):

I would say that it goes back to a lot of the themes that we've been talking about is be brave And Stand up. If there's something that you really don't feel good about and you feel like you're the company or the organization isn't going in the right direction, and they may not hear you the first time, but I'm telling you they'll hear you. So just stick with it. If you really believe in what you're talking about you, they'll listen to you. And then if you are one that finds issues and brings a solution to the table, we always, it's hard when you've got people that know that something's broken, but they can't tell you or give you any suggestions as to how do we fix it. And if you just keep at it, I think that your voice will definitely be heard and stretching yourself, these ladies that are talking about get involved in areas that you aren aren't super comfortable with. But if you step up, people notice that too, that you're willing to. So that's always extremely important.

Terry Schmidt (15:55):

I really like to have Fun. And so I think that's a big part of the conversation is to kind of be engaged in an Engaging way, But not with the silliness. I do find a lot of women in meetings are either they giggle after everything they say or they say, I'm sorry, or you know what? I think we only have 30% pull through On hard credit Pulls. So I mean, I don't know. Why don't we just like the 70% that we're paying the millions of dollars for, should we try a soft credit pull? I don't know. I don't know. You don't know. Yeah. Where's the soft credit pull guy? So don't apologize for a good idea and be confident when you're talking about 70% and millions of dollars that that's a great idea and you boast to be happy and engaging, but not the silliness that I find a lot of people still have a lot Of discomfort voicing themselves.

Melissa Wright (16:47):

I do see that from time to time. I would echo what they said and just another thing I would add is if you have a passion about something that's really important to the organization, but you have that passion for it, you can show up in that space because maybe nobody covered it. So for example, I just told Sue this story, but I am really passionate about how our employees are served. Our mission of our company is to make our originators look good. And so I'm really passionate about that. And then all be bold and stand out when I feel like they're not making them look good. And so yes, I might be able to echo an opinion of something else they're talking about, but maybe in that setting I'm always driving the employee experience or something and no one else is bringing that voice to the table. So that could be another challenge of if you want your voice heard, maybe bring something that you're really passionate about that maybe someone else isn't bringing up that does kind of help you stand out.

Melissa Langdale (17:49):

That's great. Alright, we have a little bit of a hard question. Are we okay with hard questions?

Terry Schmidt (17:54):

Sure.

Melissa Langdale (17:54):

Have you ever felt like you had a limiting factors that would hold you back from furthering your career? Melissa, why don't we start with you since I've been going this direction?

Melissa Wright (18:05):

Yeah, sure. I'll go first. So I had mentioned before that I had my own company. So we started ground up, went through an evolution from Banker, so from broker to banker. Then we sold, got some new partners, and then we sold to a big public firm. And at the time when I had been there since day one, I had built the company with my partners, but after we sold and the gentleman I was partners with was done with his tenure, then I wanted to take on as president. And that was a hard battle for me At the time I was young, I was in my early thirties and there was a lot of judgment for that. How can you do that job? And I remember walking into a board meeting for this public company and I walked in and it was 100% men. And I walked in the room and gave my presentation on applying for a job that I felt like was already mine.

(19:09)

I picked the company name, that's how long I'd been there and been a part of it. But because I wasn't the face of the company at the time of this transition, I had to apply to be president of the company. And that was a little bit of something I had to work through because there was a lot of judgment on my age and could I really do this job? And so this public company, they gave me interim president and I had to have that title for 90 days until I could show them I could do the job. So that was something that got in my way just when I was younger, that just kind of still stays with me a little bit. But how I moved through that was confidence. I knew I was being judged, but I didn't let that hold me back. I didn't let that get in my head so much. I wanted to make sure that I used that to actually motivate me to show I could do the job and turn it into confidence. So sometimes those things will come up and you'll feel like people's eyes are on you or judging you, and I just say, use it in your favor and don't let it get in your way.

Katherine Campbell (20:14):

Yeah, right. Take the 90 day, take it absolutely mine. In the middle of San Francisco, everybody had a bachelor's from Sanford and a master's from Harvard. So I was like, I am never getting a job in this town. I have a bachelor's from the University of San Francisco and organizational behavior, but really it was true competition. But I will say I don't think I've ever had a job that I didn't get promoted. And then I took that and either did a lateral move and got another promotion. And once I was hired, no one ever said for that next promotion, oh wait, do you have a master's or what was your GPA? I mean, to get some jobs, I had to actually submit my transcripts from college. I mean, it was the real deal on a lot of these things, but I've never had education get in the way of what I really want to do.

Terry Schmidt (21:02):

I would say that for years we had a sole proprietor owner at Guild and he built the company to serve his building company. He built first time home buyer type homes and he really didn't want to grow the company. He became very well off through his building a company. And so we were really stagnant for a long time and that was hard. It was trying to get him to take a little risk, put a little capital in over here kind of let's do this, let's do that. And so we were pretty held back. And then in 2005 he said he couldn't continue to work and he was in his mid eighties. So we ended up doing a management buyout and that's when we took the company to a billion dollar company to a 35 billion company. So that's been fun. That's been fun. We got our chance.

Melissa Langdale (22:03):

That's pretty impressive. So none of those limiting factors actually limited any of you. All right. So that was kind of the moral of that question. Okay. So obviously we all have people in our lives that impact our careers. We have mentors that help us to grow either as a leader or to help us to grow our companies. If you think about mentorship, how did you find a mentor? Was it organic? Was it intentional? Would love to hear maybe your story on that. Why don't we start in the middle this time, Katherine.

Katherine Campbell (22:46):

I'm forging new paths, Melissa. So I don't have very many mentors other than I will say the first person who really listened to me in my career was chair and sing, who was the CEO of select quote life insurance. And they had interviewed 23 people over 18 months to decide if they were going to go digital. And I was like, this is a fricking waste of my time. I mean, this is a song and answer. You get laid off from the next startup over the next startup. So I was between startups and I'm like, I'll go recruiter because you keep in touch with those recruiters, but just to do you a favor, but this is a waste of my time. He's just stealing information from everybody and building some digital team somewhere. And he listened in a way, this is a turban wearing Indian man who were a Ralph Lauren Polo perfectly starched shirt every single day where the polo, the little Ralph Lauren guy matched the color of his turban, just perfectionist. And I thought, oh, he's really not going to Like me. I'm walking in blonde. And so I've never seen, it is rare to come across it. Now, someone who is so interested to learn, they could hear a pin drop while they were listening to you and as young as I was, but full of a lot of knowledge he did not have. I thought, first of all, never judge anybody, and I want to be a leader like that. So he still calls me from time to time. We should have kept you here, Catherine. We should have kept you for a long time. Of course, they're public now, so I probably should have stayed.

Melissa Langdale (24:18):

Melissa.

Melissa Wright (24:23):

I would say early on in my career when I started that the real estate partners that I had started this mortgage company with that they took a chance on me. I mean, I was 25 years old, didn't have any experience and they saw something in me and then mentored me and gave me opportunities. And then that leapt forward to a gentleman at this public company that we had sold to. He was the one champion for me to take on as president and was just a wonderful person and advocate and I learned a ton from him. And then our current chairman is probably my favorite human being, and I lean on him and get mentored by him whenever I can. It's just been an honor to work for his company and be under him. And I have a business coach, well, I have two. So I also have business coach where I'm very intentional with helping me with different things I want to do or things that I'm passionate about or want to start or help me frame. So I show up the best version of myself. So I have very intentionality between with business coaching and the rest. Were organic.

Melissa Langdale (25:30):

That's great, Terry.

Terry Schmidt (25:31):

Mine is completely organic. So when I started at Guild, the CEO, Marianne McGarry, we've worked together for close to 40 years and she was my mentor, she was my boss. She taught me, we actually, neither of us had any business experience in mortgage. So we taught each other the businesses we went along and she believed in me. And it makes all the difference in the world. If you have somebody that really, it's so important to have somebody in the organization that takes you under their wing and that believes in you. I think that's key to really having a lot more doors open to you. And not that you don't earn it because you do, but it makes a huge difference. And then she became a best friend and then we became business partners and the rest is history.

Melissa Langdale (26:29):

I love that. Mine we're all organic as well. I did try at one point in my very early career to ask somebody to be my mentor, and I did it so awkwardly, But I was bright-eyed, bushy tailed. I'm like, I'm going to learn so much from this person. And it did not work out. I wanted it to. And what I found is the best mentors really just come organically. People that and trust and over time can help you and help invest in your career. So I had a very, very similar experience to you guys. Alright, well we have some time to open it up for some questions and since we're an intimate group, I don't think we need Mikes for everybody who's got some questions. Anybody. Okay. Love it. I love it. This might be my most favorite question. Okay. I want to hear it.

Audience member 1 (27:30):

I was thinking about any kind of risk that you're taking right now. I mean it seems like when the market's low like this and you're trying to brace for this inevitable future we have here in this next year, is it important to take risk? And what kind of risk are you taking? Are you taking a high flyer, you're trying something new in the process, anything like that? You're taking a big risk.

Melissa Langdale (27:53):

Katherine.

Katherine Campbell (27:55):

So start with AnnieMac and the worst time in history in the industry. And they are just fierce business developers. They're phenomenal at that and they know how to do business based on a history of success of doing business, which sort of looks like maybe seven years ago and not so much modern in the way that we would expect digital tools to work. Certainly a web experience. I mean, they have a website that's on some CMS System. That they're paying a bunch of money for that just sits. There is not no plugs into this thing and not even SEO, no SEO tags and literally has duplicate data across other brands that they, it's a terrible situation. So the point is that I had to go in and say, well first, we'll rebrand, we're keeping AnnieMac, but just it needs a fresh, clean sweep. We're on a 15 year old logo and it's dated looking anyway, but then we need to rebuild. This is not inexpensive stuff venturing into the web space at this point of the game, but there's no coming out of this competitively without doing it, period. Just like they said this morning, 26 million new young home buyers coming into the market. If we don't have a rockstar website and experience with SSOs all the way through, we're going to run somebody through about 11 technologies. It cannot feel that way. We have to start now to be competitive for then. And it has been a challenge and these guys have been phenomenal about it. I've gone to blows, they've gone to tears. We definitely did a role reversal on this and we are coming out the other side and it's worth the risk. I know it's the right thing to do. So you just have to have some proof back there.

Melissa Langdale (29:35):

Terry.

Terry Schmidt (29:36):

I think for us it's really the dislocation in the market and getting the sales staff getting good talent. We're very aggressive on the M and A space and on the organic growth space. So we're double downing on retail right now. So that's the risk that we're taking.

Melissa Langdale (29:55):

Melissa.

Melissa Wright (29:58):

we're doing a couple things, but a risk always is In your growth and the people that you invest in and the way that you grow and where you grow and who you grow to, that's always has a little bit of a risk to it. When it pays off, it can be phenomenal. So it's worth the risk. So we'll always go for it. What Our learning is is to go ahead and get in fast but get out faster If it's not Good. So I think it's always worth doing risk with growth. That's great.

Melissa Langdale (30:31):

Alright, anybody else? Yeah.

Audience Member 2 (30:35):

So you said that every job that you have, had you had a promotion, I think Katherine, that was you. How do you know you're ready for promotion or how do you know you're in the stage of your career? I'm ready for the next job. I'm ready for the next job. And how do you make yourself visible in the next role to your leadership?

Katherine Campbell (30:56):

That's a great question. So Marissa Meyer, who now is the CEO of Smile, used to be the CEO of Yahoo and I was obsessed with her. Her I wish she could have been my mentor. I just thought she was phenomenal. And she said very early when she left Google and made a billion dollars, they said, how did you know to take the risk and go to Google? I mean, look at you now. And she's like, yeah, we're all really enjoying our Tesla's. And that was, we didn't even hear the word Tesla back then. So she said, take a job. You're really not quite willing to ready to take experience wise, but do it with the smartest people you can find. And so I was the biggest always be planning what your next move is. Don't wait for somebody to come and ask you. So I was in a meeting, we had the full board at Assurance Financial attending that meeting and that didn't happen very often.

(31:49)

And I knew that they needed, I was the head of marketing, but I was running all the technology and I'm like, it's like I need all of these people to report to me so that I'm not politely asking, would you mind what we could do? I need to say I want it done on Friday. So I thought I built this position they never had, which was a CDO Chief Digital Officer. And I had never had a C-suite position at that point. So same sort of thing. I think it's a C-suite role, but I don't know how they feel about it. So I built a beautiful org chart with everybody's headshot all over it and color. And I even had, for my business intelligence person, I put a little unicorn, a little rainbow unicorn. I knew my quant was not going to make it, but that still deserved a spot.

(32:35)

And then I was in the center and I had different departments and I went into meeting and I printed it on 11 by 17, those big pieces of paper and I had it folded. I thought if it comes up, I'm going to explain this, but it probably won't come up. So lo and behold, we go through the whole meeting, there's never a great opportunity to bring it up. I don't want to embarrass the CEO by bringing up something that he did know that I would. And I start to walk out of the room and they go, Katherine, what about, and they asked me something that brought me back in. We got engrossed into the technology and the fact that they didn't have a leader. And I said, well, I'll tell you what I was thinking, boom. And they were like, okay, so I already had the solution for them. And that's sort of what you need to do. What is the next role that you want, particularly if it's a missing role, you need to write that job description, explain to them why the company, it's a company benefit. And then naturally, you're probably the most astute person to take that role. So just always be deciding if it's that company or somewhere else.

Terry Schmidt (33:34):

And if it's really what you want to do, if it's what you want to do, don't ever say you're not ready. You're ready. If it's something you love and you're passionate about, you got to go for it.

Melissa Langdale (33:46):

I love it. Melissa, anything to add?

Melissa Wright (33:49):

Not necessarily. I'll just say for me, it was never about a promotion because I was already an Executive. It was more about other things I was responsible for. So I'd mentioned some of the things I'm doing now versus what I was doing before, and that's just opportunities. So I wasn't as caught up in a title or what was in my job description as much as just leaning into the opportunities. And then later you can always go back and be like, Well, This is how it's kind of evolved, or this is the job now that I'm doing. If the promotion's not there, sometimes we sit back and we wait for a job posting and then we want to go for it or see where the advancements are. Sometimes you literally have to create them. And so it's a little bit of what Katherine says, you just have to see the need in the organization, feel like it will stretch you jump through it and then it'll evolve into different naturally be a promotion.

Melissa Langdale (34:48):

I love that. Any other questions?

Melissa Wright (34:55):

Yeah, you can just talk.

Audience Member 3 (34:56):

Yeah. So curious, you talked about your journey, the powerful women you've become talk a about work-life balance. So we all know that we have these things called kids, potential partners being pets, whatever is out there that take up a lot of our time as well, just as much as So what golden nuggets do you have to manage that with the prominent position in the company? Keep them or all grown?

Terry Schmidt (35:31):

My kids are all grown now. I had three boys, but when they were, I didn't have to travel a lot. I'm on the road all the time and that would be very challenging if I had to do that. I can say that just the technology that we have today, you can do so much more and be other places and be where you need to be with your kids. I always had a lot of help and I took all the help that I could get. I had a live-in nanny and my husband was really supportive. We both had careers, but it all worked out and I don't feel like I missed out on it. I really don't. I don't feel like I missed out on anything luckily.

Melissa Langdale (36:14):

That's great, Katherine.

Katherine Campbell (36:16):

I did. That's good that you didn't. I knew it was a sacrifice and it's just what I wanted to do. And I decided early on, here's how I'm going to handle it. When I'm working, I am going to be focused on work and when I'm with those kids, I'm going to be focused on those kids. And I just really separated and it was never enough time. I was talking, I was in one of the booths a little while ago and my 22 year old son called me and I'm like, never calls me in the middle Of the day, hold on. Hey son, what do you need? I met this girl last night. I'm like, okay. I'm in the middle of a meeting. I'm going to call you in a minute. And so he's like, okay, call me back. He's not even frustrated. He's calling his mom to say, I met a girl last night and I cannot even get out of the, it was a really kind of cool conversation I was having. So we're always sort of picking those battles and it's much more difficult with a five-year-old in the room. No doubt about it, but it is a sacrifice. And I'm tired of the thought that we could, you can do it all. You cannot do it all. And you're just going to have to decide what's most important to you and make sure you have the support group around you to accomplish those things without sacrificing the children too much. Just my 2.

Melissa Wright (37:21):

I'll take a totally different approach because what they've said is stellar, but then also you need to take care of yourself. And so I think that's really important to make sure that you're showing up the best version of yourself and adjusting your schedule so you can meet the needs and the demands of everybody in your life, whether that be your career life and your home life and whatever those other connections and priorities you have. And so really be intentional with your day, how you schedule your day, when you get your sleep, when you get up, when you get time for yourself. I feel like that's really important. And I mentioned early on, one of the regrets I have is I didn't do as great of that when I was younger, but I would advocate for you to do the things that take care of you.

(38:07)

So because when you're taking care of yourself, then you're showing up great for all the people that need you. And sometimes that gets sacrificed because so many people need you and just whatever that means. If you have to get up earlier, I never opened my email box before 8:00 AM so that's my time to do everything I need to do. And it wasn't like that for a lot of years, but that is a commitment I made to myself and I stay with it. So I would just encourage everything they're saying, but then also take care of yourself.

Melissa Langdale (38:41):

And it's okay to set those expectations for yourself and say, this is the line that I'm drawing so that I can have that balance. One of the things that I did is I did have to reset expectations in general. I was somebody before I had children that the house had to be tidy before I went to bed because I couldn't actually sleep. And then I had twin boys and I just needed a front door and a roof over my head after that. The expectations just had to completely shift. But the other thing is I've actually had an opportunity over my career to bring my children along with my why. So when they ask questions, I said, do you know what mommy got to do today? And I had the opportunity to share with them why this is so important, not just for our family and the income that we're earning, but the impact that I am able to have on a much broader scope. And so don't hesitate to share your career with your children, would be my advice. Okay. Well, I think we are at time. Terry, Katherine, Melissa, Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you guys all for being here as well. I appreciated your expertise and hope everybody has time to stick around for our next session and I'll see you later on at the conference.